Yes... I'm probably 98% with you... but (a) I'm pretty sure there is "something it is like" to be a fish, and that therefore fish are conscious; but mostly (b) I'm not entirely convinced by this consciousness vs replicators and good vs evil thing. Firstly, it seems to me that it is consciousness that is the source of evil (as well as of good, of course) - "pure" replicators, like predators in nature, are just following their instinctive and genetic imperatives, they're not being "evil" any more than a hurricane which kills people is evil. Second, actually abandoning replication would mean "stop having children": it would be all very well having a final generation of enlightened beings, but if the purpose of the universe is to keep increasing its own knowledge of itself, and it can only do that through the experiences of conscious beings, then it would just have to give up on the Planet Earth as a way of helping it, and rely on the development of conscious intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. Seems kind of a shame when we have come so far that we can even discuss that principle. Sounds like being two moves away from checkmate and sweeping the chess pieces off the board.
A) I’m sure fish are conscious as well! I didn’t mean to give the impression that they’re not.
B) This is a fair criticism, I don’t actually think there’s an exact mapping. Instead I feel like when you overoptimise on replication, you end up with evil. It’s kind of like an alignment problem thing, some replication is necessary to get stable conscious systems, but then if you keep going and start to ignore consciousness for pure replication, you start to get problems.
If idealism is right, and the universe is fundamentally driven by movements in conscious valence, you need a way to explain suffering. For me, the overoptimisation of replication is what can do this.
This is extremely extremely thought provoking, you have really nailed down some concepts that I've only felt aund the edges of. You've given me an awful lot to consider, looking forward to more.
Thanks! This post was kind of a culmination of thoughts I’d had about the fundamental importance of consciousness in ethics, so cool to hear someone else was having similar ideas
Interesting piece! I'm currently reading a somewhat related book: "The Feeling of Value" by Sharon Hewitt Rawlette, in which the author defends a moral realism grounded in valenced conscious experiences -- highly recommended!
Also, small feedback: on the substack app, the long links get cut short, which is kinda annoying
Hey Luca, thanks! Yeah i was about to link it to you haha. I haven't actually read it fully yet, I took most of the ideas from podcasts with her. It's on my list though
Yes... I'm probably 98% with you... but (a) I'm pretty sure there is "something it is like" to be a fish, and that therefore fish are conscious; but mostly (b) I'm not entirely convinced by this consciousness vs replicators and good vs evil thing. Firstly, it seems to me that it is consciousness that is the source of evil (as well as of good, of course) - "pure" replicators, like predators in nature, are just following their instinctive and genetic imperatives, they're not being "evil" any more than a hurricane which kills people is evil. Second, actually abandoning replication would mean "stop having children": it would be all very well having a final generation of enlightened beings, but if the purpose of the universe is to keep increasing its own knowledge of itself, and it can only do that through the experiences of conscious beings, then it would just have to give up on the Planet Earth as a way of helping it, and rely on the development of conscious intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. Seems kind of a shame when we have come so far that we can even discuss that principle. Sounds like being two moves away from checkmate and sweeping the chess pieces off the board.
A) I’m sure fish are conscious as well! I didn’t mean to give the impression that they’re not.
B) This is a fair criticism, I don’t actually think there’s an exact mapping. Instead I feel like when you overoptimise on replication, you end up with evil. It’s kind of like an alignment problem thing, some replication is necessary to get stable conscious systems, but then if you keep going and start to ignore consciousness for pure replication, you start to get problems.
If idealism is right, and the universe is fundamentally driven by movements in conscious valence, you need a way to explain suffering. For me, the overoptimisation of replication is what can do this.
This is extremely extremely thought provoking, you have really nailed down some concepts that I've only felt aund the edges of. You've given me an awful lot to consider, looking forward to more.
Thanks! This post was kind of a culmination of thoughts I’d had about the fundamental importance of consciousness in ethics, so cool to hear someone else was having similar ideas
Great read!
Interesting piece! I'm currently reading a somewhat related book: "The Feeling of Value" by Sharon Hewitt Rawlette, in which the author defends a moral realism grounded in valenced conscious experiences -- highly recommended!
Also, small feedback: on the substack app, the long links get cut short, which is kinda annoying
I just read your piece on utilitarianism and you cite the same book, oops!
Hey Luca, thanks! Yeah i was about to link it to you haha. I haven't actually read it fully yet, I took most of the ideas from podcasts with her. It's on my list though